Socrates
What does it mean?
How does it relate to Chapter 8?
What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
How does it relate to Chapter 8?
What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
lundi 9 décembre 2013
Quote of the Day - Chapter 9
When a person starts on the discovery of the absolute by the light of reason only, and without any assistance of sense, and perseveres until by pure intelligence he arrives at the perception of the absolute good, he at last finds himself at the end of the intellectual world, as in the case of sight at the end of the visible...
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The meaning of platos Socrates means is that strain which is of the intellect only, but which the faculty of sight will nevertheless be found to imitate; for sight, as you may remember, was imagined by us after a while to behold the real animals and stars, and last of all the sun himself. And so with dialectic,
RépondreEffacerI think it means when you imagine something, see or hear it will help figure something out at the end, or in the novels case figure out that the beast does not exist.
This relates to chapter 9, when simon realises that the beast does not exist and that the beast is within them. he tries to warn the other boys, but they think he was the beast so they kill him, and he have become part of nature when they decide to throw him in the ocean.
“There were no words, and no movements but the tearing of teeth and claws.”
- Simon, mistaken for the beast, is knocked to the ground and stabbed with spears as the boys become like animals or beasts themselves.
As we said before there is no more sense of civilisation and they have all became savages.
well said Johanne, and is anyone else sad that Simon is gone? :( I thnk that he could really of grown as a character and he could really of changed the savage boys' morals. But i understand that it was a good idea to kill him for the impact to the reader in the idea that they are turning into monsters
RépondreEffacerSimon was a good boy. May he rest in peace...
EffacerTo be quite honest with you, I kind of anticipated something of this sort to happen in the near future because in the previous chapter, the Lord of the Flies said he would have "fun" with Simon. Just the way he said it, led me to believe he would take advantage of Simon. I see Simon's death as a way for the Lord of the Flies to prove the fact that the "Beast" is found in all human beings, and that the Beast found in all of us will prevail. It just goes to show you how fragile human beings really are.
I agree with both of you, he soul fact of survival turned the boys into their own beast. Their personalties manifested themselves to accommodate the situations they face. Sad to see Simon go, though and good plot twist nevertheless. >:D
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EffacerBut yeah very good points you've brought up. It was very shocking to see them kill off this character like that.
Alex, good for you for picking up on the foreshadowing. To be honest, I didn't even pick up on it!
EffacerYeah, I'm also sad he left but I suppose it helps highlight the boys' savagery seeing a they killed the nicest and most reasonable boy among them. This murder develops the theme of the evil nature of humans as well as the symbol of the beast as the evil inside each of them.
RépondreEffacerCe commentaire a été supprimé par l'auteur.
EffacerLizzie, I agree with you, but I would not say that the boys are evil. I perceive them as being lost boys or perhaps lost souls, who are only trying to do what is best for them in order to survive and I do not think that this is evil.
EffacerRegardless of what their motives are, there is not questioning that what they did was evil. You could always make the argument that they did what they had to do, though there are always better solutions.
EffacerI have to disagree with you. What they did was not an act of evilness. They were confused and thought it was the beast, they did not kill Simon on purpose. I looked up the definition of evil and this is what it said: profoundly immoral and malevolent. I also looked up the definition of malevolent and this is what I found: having or showing a wish to do evil to others. Personally I do not think that it applies to this situation because the boys did not wish to do evil (killing Simon).
EffacerThey killed simon and became savages over time.
EffacerIn this case if "surviving" then surviving and "being lost" is evil.
^ I agree with Elisabeth.
EffacerI too agree with Élisabeth. In my opinion, the boys are also lost (regarding the need to escape and prioritizing) driving agression and impatience from inside them. I believe W. Goulding really featured his knowledge on human psychology when killing off Simon, it was sad but necessary to induce a possible change in the boys or further ruthlessness and - almost - barbarism. To continue, I strongly believe events of those sorts would occur if young boys we're to be left on an island alone.
EffacerWhat Socrates meant when he said this quote was that when a person goes on his path to discover what life truly means, what it is to be a worthy human being and how to be complete, if he uses reason and digs deep in his own mind to find answers without letting his emotions or whatever prejudices he has cloud over his judgement and actions, it is only then that he will truly see the world for what it is and be whole.
RépondreEffacerThere is of course a flaw in this ideal and that flaw is us, the emotional, scatter-brained, impulsive and petty human being. The reality is that every single one of us perceives certain ideas, concepts and emotions differently,this is because we have all been thrown into different situations that continuously change and evolve us. It is my opinion that it is unlikely if not impossible that a human will ever "find himself at the end of the intellectual world" because we are not robots, we do not live in a black and white world and an endless amount of biological and psychological facts and theories help us explain and prove that we can never be all-knowing, impartial or objective in every single thing that we do. Therefore, just like the boys in the book, we are all doomed to have our imperfect moments and be non-sensical when put in certain situations. For example, when the boys mistake Simon for the Beast, their immediate thought is to kill him. "Kill the Beast!Cut his Throat! Spill his blood!" they continuously chant and end up actually killing Simon. At the beginning of the book, Jack couldn't hardly stab an animal for food, much less kill a person and it is to be assumed that none of the other boys would have been able to either. But being stuck on the island, their perceptions of right and wrong have changed, they are now quick to eliminate the thing they find the most threatening without using logic or sense. Socrates would be so disappointed.
Great analysis of the quote! I think the only one of the boys who might have achieved what Socrates described is Simon, when he encountered the Lord of the Flies and the sky diver. He was the first to understand the importance and meaning of the Beast. Sadly, this made him a target for the other boys.
EffacerJana, you are so smart! That was extremely well said and it makes so much sense. The boys actions were led by their emotions, which controlled them and clouded their judgement. During the "dance", they were so caught up in the moment that they acted on impulse and killed Simon.
EffacerI read your answer and said out loud "My students are so smart!!" ;)
EffacerNice inquiry of Socrates quote! And I couldn't have said it better myself regarding the boys evolution from being on the island, however I think the term that best describes their changing behavior would be to devolve; as they are losing sight of what is important and the capability of maintaining order.
RépondreEffacerAnd Élisabeth, I agree with Simon achieving Socrates quote and making him a target because I feel that such a state is next to impossible to obtain without being rejected or shunned (due to jealousy perhaps and fear) in our society.