God is dead. We have killed him you and I. Friedrich Nieztche What does it mean? How does it relate to Chapter 8? What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
In the Nineteenth Century , German poet and philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, influenced by philosophy and the theory of evolution wrote, "God is dead. We have killed him you and I." Nietzsche's purpose was to abolish "traditional" morality-Christianity, in particular-because, in his mind, it represented an attempt of self-serving religious leaders to control the weak and unthinking masses. Nietzsche believed that the "idea" of God was no longer necessary; in fact, God was irrelevant because man was evolving to a place where he could create a deeper and more satisfying "master morality" of his own.
The belief that God is dead and religion is irrelevant naturally leads to the following ideas: 1) If God is dead, there are no moral absolutes and no universal standard to which all men should conform. 2) If God is dead, there is no purpose or rational order in life. 3) If God is dead, any design seen in the universe is projected by men who are desperate to find meaning in life. 4) If God is dead, man is independent and totally free to create his own values. 5) If God is dead, the "real" world (as opposed to a heaven and hell) is man's only concern. The idea that "God is dead" is primarily a challenge to God's authority over our lives. The notion that we can safely create our own rules was the lie that the serpent told Eve: "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5). The "God is dead" argument is usually presented as a rational, empowering philosophy for artists and intellectuals. But scripture calls it foolish. "The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1). Ironically, those who hold to the “God is dead” philosophy will discover the fatal error in the philosophy when they themselves are dead.
I agree, he meant it metaphorically, the idea being that religion no longer is capable of providing spiritual guidance in the modern world, which applies to the situation Jack, Piggy and Ralph are in.
In chapter 8, Jack was trying to convince the boys that Ralph is not a good leader and that himself is the better leader. Jack was trying to gain power by bringing Ralph down. "He's not a hunter. He'd never have got us meat. He isn't a perfect and we don't know anything about him. He just gives orders and expects people to obey for nothing. All this talk -"(p.139) This quote shows that Jack is not conforming to any universal standard, since the method he is using to gain power is not very honorable. His actions are not very Christian like, which demonstrates that God is irrelevant to Jack. After being humiliated, Jack says, "I'm going off by myself. He can catch his own pigs. Anyone who wants to hunt when I do can come too." (p.140) before running off, alone, into the forest. This clearly shows that there is no longer a rational order in life. Before, even though, there was some tension, the boys were able to work together. But now that a significant member of the group has left, it is very unsettling for the other boys. It is clear, that Jack's departure is affecting Ralph when he says, "He'll come back. When the sun goes down he'll come."(p.140) This quote shows that Ralph is affected because there little community is no longer in order. This might mean that God relevant to Ralph, since the lack of order is affecting him on a much deeper level. "Roger ran round the heap, prodding with his spear whenever pg flesh appeared. Jack was on top of the sow, stabbing downward with his knife. Roger found a lodgment for his point and began to push till he was leaning with his whole weight. The spear moved forward inch by inch and the terrified squealing became a high-pitched scream. Then Jack found the throat and the hot blood spouted over his hands." (p.149) To me, this is the passage from chapter 8 that relates the most to the quote. The belief that God is dead and religion is irrelevant naturally lead to this passage in the book. This passage shows that there are no longer moral absolutes and no universal standard to which all men should conform, there is no purpose or rational order in life and that man is independent and totally free to create his own values. These actions were examples of unnecessary violence but the best example is when Roger lodged his spear in the sow's anus. Finally, the pig on a stick is a direct result of their actions.
This is interesting. The boys seem to be very easily convinced to go on the savage side that they don't really think of the consequence. I agree with Camille, Jack does not seem to believe in God. He does as he pleases but God seems a bit more present in Ralph's life. Ralph does what he thinks is best and tries to reassure himself that they will be back.
I agree with your point. I don't quite know how to answer to this, but i do see the point that you are making. The fact that Jack isn't using honourable methods, or christian methods, makes it seem like god is irrelevant to Jack.
I think it doesn't necessarily need to be connected with God. Maybe Ralph just knows how to be a good person in general and his morality stands out among-st the morality of others within the group
I agree with you. Like you said, the boys have lost their values and their sense of what is right and wrong. Jack doesn't see Ralph as somebody he should obey and listen to. Perhaps this is because he has been obeying adults his entire life and he doesn't see Ralph as someone who has authority over him.
it's taking a bit to understand the connections but i can kinda see what you are saying. like Jacob said, Jack is controlling the group by saying "come with me and you can enjoy a feast" to all the boys that are obviously starving. So he is using dirty tricks to get the boys to leave Ralph for him.
I agree, the boys, following Jack are drifting into a godless, savage style of living. Maybe God in this quote, could represent hope. As the community is becoming less united, chaos is settling in and they are therefore killing their hope of survival and rescue by acting this way.
Yes, I think God represents hope in this quote. They have lost their "civilized" values and rational thought, and without these, the boys are doomed. For me, it is closer to the pig hunt example than when Jack tries to overthrow Ralph in an "unchristian" manner, because they are enjoying the fact that they are causing harm to the pig and they are crudely killing it by shoving a spear in its... you know where. The Lord of the Flies is seemingly a symbol of complete savagery among the boys.
I tend to agree with Madison because Ralph is doing the right thing god seems to be more present in his life you can see that Ralph has good values where as jack he doesn't care what he does he is careless and selfish and all he is looking for is power
The boys are definitely forgetting what is right and wrong. Jack is becoming a savage for sure. People are starting to join Jack because he is tricking them (Nic's comment). I like how Tristan said that God represents hope. I find it makes more sense that way to the quote and the chapter.
I agree with you, i find that he is playing tricks to capture the trust of the other boys, as nick said that Jack is controlling the group not in a good way
In the Nineteenth Century , German poet and philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, influenced by philosophy and the theory of evolution wrote, "God is dead. We have killed him you and I."
RépondreEffacerNietzsche's purpose was to abolish "traditional" morality-Christianity, in particular-because, in his mind, it represented an attempt of self-serving religious leaders to control the weak and unthinking masses. Nietzsche believed that the "idea" of God was no longer necessary; in fact, God was irrelevant because man was evolving to a place where he could create a deeper and more satisfying "master morality" of his own.
The belief that God is dead and religion is irrelevant naturally leads to the following ideas:
1) If God is dead, there are no moral absolutes and no universal standard to which all men should conform.
2) If God is dead, there is no purpose or rational order in life.
3) If God is dead, any design seen in the universe is projected by men who are desperate to find meaning in life.
4) If God is dead, man is independent and totally free to create his own values.
5) If God is dead, the "real" world (as opposed to a heaven and hell) is man's only concern.
The idea that "God is dead" is primarily a challenge to God's authority over our lives. The notion that we can safely create our own rules was the lie that the serpent told Eve: "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5). The "God is dead" argument is usually presented as a rational, empowering philosophy for artists and intellectuals. But scripture calls it foolish. "The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1). Ironically, those who hold to the “God is dead” philosophy will discover the fatal error in the philosophy when they themselves are dead.
I agree, he meant it metaphorically, the idea being that religion no longer is capable of providing spiritual guidance in the modern world, which applies to the situation Jack, Piggy and Ralph are in.
EffacerIn chapter 8, Jack was trying to convince the boys that Ralph is not a good leader and that himself is the better leader. Jack was trying to gain power by bringing Ralph down. "He's not a hunter. He'd never have got us meat. He isn't a perfect and we don't know anything about him. He just gives orders and expects people to obey for nothing. All this talk -"(p.139) This quote shows that Jack is not conforming to any universal standard, since the method he is using to gain power is not very honorable. His actions are not very Christian like, which demonstrates that God is irrelevant to Jack.
RépondreEffacerAfter being humiliated, Jack says, "I'm going off by myself. He can catch his own pigs. Anyone who wants to hunt when I do can come too." (p.140) before running off, alone, into the forest. This clearly shows that there is no longer a rational order in life. Before, even though, there was some tension, the boys were able to work together. But now that a significant member of the group has left, it is very unsettling for the other boys. It is clear, that Jack's departure is affecting Ralph when he says, "He'll come back. When the sun goes down he'll come."(p.140) This quote shows that Ralph is affected because there little community is no longer in order. This might mean that God relevant to Ralph, since the lack of order is affecting him on a much deeper level.
"Roger ran round the heap, prodding with his spear whenever pg flesh appeared. Jack was on top of the sow, stabbing downward with his knife. Roger found a lodgment for his point and began to push till he was leaning with his whole weight. The spear moved forward inch by inch and the terrified squealing became a high-pitched scream. Then Jack found the throat and the hot blood spouted over his hands." (p.149) To me, this is the passage from chapter 8 that relates the most to the quote. The belief that God is dead and religion is irrelevant naturally lead to this passage in the book. This passage shows that there are no longer moral absolutes and no universal standard to which all men should conform, there is no purpose or rational order in life and that man is independent and totally free to create his own values. These actions were examples of unnecessary violence but the best example is when Roger lodged his spear in the sow's anus. Finally, the pig on a stick is a direct result of their actions.
This is interesting. The boys seem to be very easily convinced to go on the savage side that they don't really think of the consequence. I agree with Camille, Jack does not seem to believe in God. He does as he pleases but God seems a bit more present in Ralph's life. Ralph does what he thinks is best and tries to reassure himself that they will be back.
EffacerI agree with your point. I don't quite know how to answer to this, but i do see the point that you are making. The fact that Jack isn't using honourable methods, or christian methods, makes it seem like god is irrelevant to Jack.
EffacerI think it doesn't necessarily need to be connected with God. Maybe Ralph just knows how to be a good person in general and his morality stands out among-st the morality of others within the group
EffacerI agree with you. Like you said, the boys have lost their values and their sense of what is right and wrong. Jack doesn't see Ralph as somebody he should obey and listen to. Perhaps this is because he has been obeying adults his entire life and he doesn't see Ralph as someone who has authority over him.
Effacerit's taking a bit to understand the connections but i can kinda see what you are saying. like Jacob said, Jack is controlling the group by saying "come with me and you can enjoy a feast" to all the boys that are obviously starving. So he is using dirty tricks to get the boys to leave Ralph for him.
EffacerI agree, the boys, following Jack are drifting into a godless, savage style of living. Maybe God in this quote, could represent hope. As the community is becoming less united, chaos is settling in and they are therefore killing their hope of survival and rescue by acting this way.
EffacerYes, I think God represents hope in this quote. They have lost their "civilized" values and rational thought, and without these, the boys are doomed. For me, it is closer to the pig hunt example than when Jack tries to overthrow Ralph in an "unchristian" manner, because they are enjoying the fact that they are causing harm to the pig and they are crudely killing it by shoving a spear in its... you know where. The Lord of the Flies is seemingly a symbol of complete savagery among the boys.
EffacerI agree with Madison, I think, they think that acting the way they are (in a savage manner) is the only way to survive.
EffacerI tend to agree with Madison because Ralph is doing the right thing god seems to be more present in his life you can see that Ralph has good values where as jack he doesn't care what he does he is careless and selfish and all he is looking for is power
EffacerThe boys are definitely forgetting what is right and wrong. Jack is becoming a savage for sure. People are starting to join Jack because he is tricking them (Nic's comment). I like how Tristan said that God represents hope. I find it makes more sense that way to the quote and the chapter.
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RépondreEffacerI agree with you, i find that he is playing tricks to capture the trust of the other boys, as nick said that Jack is controlling the group not in a good way
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