Destroy your primitivity, and you will most probably get along well in the world, maybe achieve great success -- but Eternity will reject you. Follow up your primitivity, and you will be shipwrecked in temporality, but accepted by Eternity.
Soren Kierkegaard
What does it mean?
How does it relate to Chapter 7?
What concrete example of this idea can you find in the novel?
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RépondreEffacerThe translation of this quote is as follows: Destroying who you and conforming to what society wants you to be and you will get along well in the world, possibly even achieving greatness, however, eternally you will be masked from your true self. Follow and own up to who you are/meant to be, temporarily you will be ridiculed and tormented in the sense that you are not what everyone else wants you to be, however you are staying true to yourself and eternity will welcome you as you are.
RépondreEffacerThis quote relates to Ralphs situation in chapter 7, because Ralph begins to lose control with the boys. He starts feeling the pressure of losing his power as a leader. In my opinion, Ralph has one of two options. He could either, abandon his post as the leader, let Jack take over and conform to what he doesn’t feel is himself, or he could let his power drive his decisions by stopping them, staying true to himself and controlling the situation. However under this circumstance he then loses the interest and patience of the group. By conforming to what the other boys want him to be he makes them happy, but he isn’t being himself and doing what he feels is right in this particular situation. By taking control and staying true to himself, he does what he thinks would benefit the boys however he loses their trust and patience, rending him isolated from them.
A concrete example demonstrated in the novel relating to this quote is in Chapter 6. Throughout the novel Jack gradually becomes manipulative in convincing the other boys that he is stronger, tougher, faster, and can kill the evil beast the children have believed is haunting the island. Ralph is more focused on a rescue mission by maintaining fires and building shelters to protect them from dangerous weathers. Jack places false thoughts and ideas in the minds of the others exclaiming he is the best, and their safety is guaranteed under his presence. Excluding Simon and Piggy, majority of the survivors abandon Ralph and follow under Jack’s manipulative directions and orders. This situation is a prime example of conforming using the idea of fear. Caused by fear, the other children conform to the way Jack makes them believe is right, which ultimately leads them down a path filled with chaos and destruction. By conforming to what Jack is telling them, whether they agree with his decisions or not, they risk their safety and the possibility of finding a way home which Ralph had intended in the first place.
I totally agree with your answer, well said. Jack is manipulating the boys with fear. He promises that he will keep them safe and that he is doing things in their best interest, and they believe him. On the other hand, Ralph is actually thinking about the boys' best interest , but he is less popular because he is less interesting, charismatic or heroic. I think Ralph might lose his power but Jack's reign wouldn't last long before the boys realize his promises were really empty, and in fact just an act to gain power. Sadly, by then it might be too late to overthrow Jack.
EffacerI agree with Erica and Elisabeth, with how jack manipulating the boys with the fear and threats, and that even if Ralph loses the ''power'' of being the leader he will gain it back because he was the one to trust from the start.
EffacerI think the "Fake till' you make it" expression applies here. Jack is manipulating the group with fear and also promises safety. I believe this is mostly an "act" by Jack in a way that he behaves like he's the best and knows what's best for the group. He takes advantage of the fact that Ralph isn't as interesting as Lizzy pointed out, and uses it to his advantage.
Effacerhaha i haven't heard that one michel but it does actually make sense. I like what you said Elizabeth, i think that if Jack was ever to be the leader, he would simply make horrible decisions that might hurt the group more than anything else.
EffacerVery well said Erica. It seems that so many people these days don't even know who they truly are as individuals because they let society make up their own opinions and interests. In this case, i think the boys are forced to tap into their primal selves and instincts to survive but at the same time, they are swayed by both Jack and Ralph because as Johanne said, they represent "power" and with power comes order and security which the young boys crave.
EffacerYeah, I like your explanation. It becomes interesting to think that society is what will save them, yet won't bring Ralph the approval he needs to remain an effective leader. Whereas Jack is more primitive and probably would not be able to survive on the island with hunting alone, yet he is the one who the bigguns seem to like more.
EffacerI agree with you nic, if Jack became leader, the atmosphere in the group would change and Jack wouldn't make the right decisions.
EffacerJack would be definitely a more savage leader than Ralph. It is true what you had said about Jack using fear as an effective way to motivate the boys. For this reason he would not be a good leader.
EffacerI think you're absolutely right Erica, and I liked your interpretation. If you follow your savage survival instincts you may not be liked or known at first but embracing your instincts for survival and your prehistoric nature will guarantee your survival, in time. Such as the boys demonstrate by following Jack no matter what, and like Erica said : they risk their safety and the possibility of finding a way home which Ralph had intended in the first place.
EffacerI totally agree Erica, Ralph must learn to stay true to himself, its not all about pleasing the boys, but doing what is best for the groups survival, which is why Ralph is a better leader than Jack, whom only thinks of what he wants and what is best for himself.
EffacerIn my opinion, this quote can refer to how today's society works. Today, one must conform in order to avoid being cast out (subdivisions in our society). Obeying rules, keeping up with the latest "trends" and following a structured lifestyle are all things primitive beings do not have to worry about. Though a human being can choose to "follow up" with his/her primitivity, this would most likely mean being rejected by society. In this quote, in my opinion, "primitivity" can refer to the rebellion of a person against society, whether good or bad. When a person rebels, this shows that the person is not ignoring what he/she believes; she is thus staying true to himself/herself. So when the quoter mentions "eternity", I believe he is referring to the fact that if a person merely conforms to society without keeping his/her values, he/she is not staying true to himself/herself, therefore in the long run, these people will most likely be forgotten. In contrast, when a person stays true to his values and speaks out, in the long run, these people will be most likely remembered (there are many examples such as Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks).
RépondreEffacerThough, I believe this quote relates to the novel in a different way: he boys are becoming more and more undisciplined. In consequence, their chances of survival are diminishing bit by bit. We can even see Ralph, who is supposed to be the disciplined leader, become more reckless during this chapter. When the boys encounter the boar, we see Ralph’s more “primitive” state come to surface. He becomes overwhelmed of the fact that he wounded the boar, and this comes about when we see a hint of Jack’s personality through Ralph’s character. Ralph is thus showing signs of “following up” with his primitivity, which would really put the group in a hole, as Ralph had, until this chapter, seemed to be the boys’ only hope of rescue. If Ralph turns to his primitive state (forgets about society), the boys will certainly be “shipwrecked” on the island.
Ralph was full of fright and apprehension and pride.
“I hit him! The spear stuck in—”
Now they came, unexpectedly, to an open space by the sea. Jack cast about on the bare rock and looked anxious.
“He’s gone.”
“I hit him,” said Ralph again, “and the spear stuck in a bit.”
He felt the need of witnesses.
“Didn’t you see me?”
Maurice nodded.
This quote gives you an idea of how Ralph may be returning to his primitive state.
I agree in part, mostly on the Society aspect. People are willing to step over random people, friends and reject their values and morals to climb the social ladder. You'll have great success though you'll mostly not be remembered for the good things you've done. Contrary to a person who puts his values/morals first, will be remembered for their philosophical demeanor and of the way they act.
EffacerI really like your analysis. Basically, this quote doesn't exactly relate with the novel. If Ralph follows up his primitivity, and forgets civilization the group will evolve into savagery. Following their instincts, like Jack is doing, might be important for immediate survival but on the long run (eternity), destroying primitivity and depending on society for survival might be more worthwhile and efficient.
EffacerYea we already see how Ralph is liking hunting so much after he gloats about hitting the boar with his spear so he might be changing a bot to Jacks ways.
EffacerI agree with you Michel, the funny thing is that the thing that is supposed to separate us from animals is our humanity and logical thinking but as we see in the book, once we are forced into survival mode, we become just as wild and savage as the animals.
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EffacerI see where your coming from, saying that the quote doesn't represent the chapter, but I don't necessarily agree with that. I see it more the way Erica does, with society and logic being what will save them as well as doom Ralph leadership. All the while, they seem to like Jack more than Ralph because he appeals to their inner beast.
Effaceri completely agree with you michel, the fact that people are willing to step over random people, families and friends just to climb the social ladder. I also agree with you nic, the fact that Ralph got the adrenaline rush when hitting the boar with the spear makes him want to do it again and i think that is making him change and become a little more like jack.
EffacerI like what you and Elisabeth had said about the quote. It's a very good description and i do agree that it doesn't relate much of this chapter.
EffacerI really liked what you mentionned about being memorable and following your instincts; that if you conform to society you may be succesful for a limited time butif you follow your savage survival (better judgement) you may not be liked or known at first but will be remembered forever. Nice examples Alex!
EffacerGreat explanation of the quote and relating it to the novel (Jack & Ralph's Primal Insticts) Elisabeth!
I agree with the quote Alex used, its showing how Ralph is becoming less of a leader and is letting Jack sort of take over, we see this later on in the chapter when Jack convinces them all to go on the mountain top instead of going to check on Piggy, in that moment again Ralph lets Jack be the leader instead of himself.
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