Thommas Hobbes
- What does it mean?
- How does it relate to chapter 3?
- What concrete example of this quote can I find in the novel? (Remember to add page number)
Reminder: Justin and Camille must answer this.
The others simply leave a short comment, one for each answer provided.
- What does it mean?
- How does it relate to chapter 3?
- What concrete example of this quote can I find in the novel? (Remember to add page number)
Reminder: Justin and Camille must answer this.
The others simply leave a short comment, one for each answer provided.
I find this quotation, by Thommas Hobbes, describes that we each have a different passion when it comes to the same thing. For example, in chapter III, Ralph & Jack share the same goal; to be rescued, yet it's clear that Jack has less of an interest then say Ralph does. This is seen after the boat sails by, and Ralph (down by the shore) realizes the fire died. "There was a ship-" (...) "I was chief; you were going to do what I said. You talk. But you can't even build huts- then you go off hunting and let out the fire-" (and furthermore repeats) "There was a ship-" (Page 74) This shows passion in Ralph's eyes. He wants to follow there desire, he wants to be saved, he wants to be a leader. Yet Jack demonstrates less conviction of his desires towards rescue. He wants blood, he wants to hunt. "There was lashings of blood." (Page 73)
RépondreEffacerI agree. Both characters seem to be leaders in their own way. Ralph has his point of view and so does Jack. I believe that if they worked together, as a team, the boys would have a much easier time on the island.
EffacerHmmm. I hadn't thought of that at all. I was thinking more about how both Ralph and Jack want power thereby making them enemies.
EffacerI hadn't thought of it that way either. I see it more like Tristan does because Ralph and Jack both want the same thing which will result in them fighting against each other for power. I also agree with Madison too because they could easily work together and have better control instead of having just one person leading and looking after everything.
Effaceri agree with what Tristan said and i also maybe disagree with madison because i don't think they would get along, they both have very different opinions and priorities, all Jack does is complain and tries to be the leader and tell everyone what to but he has a mean way of doing it while Ralph is a better leader and he works hard for example when him and Simon do the shelters... the only thing they really agree on is that they both think that some of the people should be working harder and making a bigger effort to contribute so that everyone works an equal amount of time.
EffacerI agree with Olivia and Tristan, plus i also think that as far as the quote goes, it also kind of shows to what point people can be petty because of how it implies that even if two people are fighting over something they don't even care for or that wont benefit them, they will still fight for the sake of winning or dominating.
EffacerCould be that both are different types of Leaders, I think it's a question of them both coming together,sing their own sets of skills and ambitions and combining that. This way they'll get the most done for the benefit of everyone.
EffacerI agree with michel, both of them need to learn to work together and combining their skills. If they manage to pull that off the atmosphere around the little community will be much more positive.
EffacerI agree with Michel, essentially both want the same thing but they are very different, which results in them fighting against each other (for power) when attention is needed elsewhere as they could focus and work as a group to have better control, help others and get things done.
EffacerI agree with what you are saying Justin, Ralph does show that need for leadership but I find that he cannot perform as a leader as much as he wants. And Jack does want to be the leader, but like you said shows less conviction towards the matter of being rescued. I wonder how this will effect their relationship later in the novel.
RépondreEffacerI agree with both of you. Both Ralph and Jack want power, but since Ralph is already named the leader, I see Jack as a loose cannon since he has his own ideas and priorities. Jack seems to be a laid back (perhaps careless) character and shows to be less submissive to Ralph than the other characters of the novel. They both have leadership qualities and look for power over the group so, just like you Nick, I'm looking forward to the evolution of their relationship throughout the novel.
RépondreEffacerI'm curious as well, as to how their relationship will evolve. I think they would lead the group much better as a team, a democracy, with Piggy and Simon helping out as well instead of the dictatorial system they have now.
RépondreEffacerThis quotation by Thomas Hobbs means that in order to attain their goals, human beings have to destroy or subdue one another in order to survive. This is basically for their own conservation and sometimes for their delectation. The conflict between Ralph and Jack is a perfect example for this quotation because instead of getting along and helping each other, the boys belittle their ideas and methods to stay alive. We could see the conflict forming during the election, but they tried to ignore it since they were working together in order to build a community. However in this chapter, the conflict becomes more clear because of all the verbal arguments taking place. Ralphs want to build huts, while Jack wants to hunt. This shows that Ralph was thinking about the overall good of the group, while Jack has no interest in building huts and has no concern for what Ralph thinks. On the hand, Jack favors the hunt because of his bloodlust and desire for power, while Ralph thinks that it is unnecessary. "Been working for days now. And look!" Two shelters were in position, but shaky. This one was in ruin. "And they keep running off. You remember the meeting? How everyone was going to work hard until the shelters were finished?" "Except me and my hunters-" (p. 51) This passage from the book clearly demonstrates the boys differences. Ralph is subduing others in order to survive by building huts not only for himself but for everyone. Jack enjoys subduing others not in order to survive but for his delectation only.
RépondreEffacerVery well said Camille, Jack and Ralph are two very different Alpha male's (or in this case boys) who would definitely benefit from forming an alliance and working together, however just like in the traditional wolf pack, they're can only truly be one alpha.
EffacerThat was well said. I agree with Jana. There can only be one but since they both have different opinions and different ways of working, they would both easily benefit from working together
EffacerI believe that only being one "Alpha" male is the way to go to be cliche. It doesn't necessarily have to be Jack or Ralph, or Jack and Ralph. If they want to survive in a harmonic democracy then there needs to be many different parties involved with decision making.
EffacerI agree with you Michel, to take decisions that will profit most of the group, everyone must be able to have a say, even the littluns, because as we can see, a single leader is not the way to go.
EffacerI agree with you michel, the thing is that Ralph is a little less selfish compared to Jack, and this is whats building them apart, the fact that Ralph wants to do something together to help the little community, and the fact that Jack wants to help the community on his own, Jack proves that he wants to be the only leader but Ralph is getting in the way of that.
EffacerThe only problem with having a large group of leaders or maybe having everyone as a leader on the island is that, then, no meaningful work would ever be accomplished. Just look at the uselessness of their meetings. So, I'm more for the one leader and a few councilors system.
EffacerI completely agree with what you said it proves that Ralph is obviously a better leader and that him and Jack are very different in that way Jack is more a selfish type of person who only cares about what he wants or what he needs, he doesn't care about the others and he also doesn't even appreciate the work that others do around him he simply points out what he does thinking he is the best without realizing what Simon and Ralph do. Ralph cares about the others and doesn't only care about himself.
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