Nothing can be more gentle than man in his primitive state.
J.J. Rousseau
What does it mean?
How does it relate to chapter 4 that you just read?
What concrete example of this quote can you find in the novel?
REMINDER:
2 people from the Macbeth tribe will be eliminated tomorrow!!
Notebook 4 is due tomorrow in class.
This quote from Rousseau is saying that man is most gentle in his natural state. Yet this chapter is proving the exact opposite.
RépondreEffacerRousseau stands with his point that men are most kind in their natural state.
In this chapter, the boys are still isolated on the island, in their natural state.
Instead of the boys growing gentle, corruption and chaos evolves within the group.
Jack obsesses to kill a pig for meat. Whereas, Ralph focuses on the rescue from the ship. The hunters leave their assigned duties (signal/fire) to kill the pig. They succeed in slaughtering the pig but fail to achieve rescue.
"His mind was crowded with memories; memories of the knowledge that had come to them when they closed in on the struggling pig, knowledge that they had outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, taken away its life like a long satisfying drink."
Jack's mind is filled with the same idea of killing that pig.
It is also shown once Roger stated throwing rocks near the boy. It is clear that he is now becoming cruel.
"Roger gathered a handful of stones and began to throw them. Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw."
This proves the opposite of Rousseau's quote. LOTF is showing that man most cruel in his primitive state.
I completely agree with you on the fact that LOTF proves the exact opposite of this quote. But just to mention for reflective purposes, I think that Ralph did show some signs of gentleness when he faced Jack after he had returned from hunting. Ralph could have easily resorted to violence, but instead, he kept his anger and frustration to himself and showed self-control. So I guess, just like most things, it really depends on the person. But like I said, I totally agree with you.
EffacerI totally agree with what you guys said, I think Simon might represent this quote better because his natural instinct is to help the littluns, therefore he is more gentle in his primitive state.
Effaceri do like what you said Oliver and you too Alex. Another thing is that now we see that Jack has gotten the hunger for blood, he know realizes that hunting is for him. This might effect his actions towards the groups as he is already showing signs of violence when he hits Piggy in the gut.
EffacerThat's it. Basically, J.J. Rousseau believed that man was naturally good whereas William Golding, author of Lord of the Flies, obviously believes that man is naturally evil. And, it's kind of representative of the battle between these two ideas going on between the boys on the island.
EffacerI completely agree with you Oliver. This quote is basically the exact opposite of this book. I also disagree with J.J Rousseau because I think that a man in his primitive state would not be gentle because his instinct would be to save himself and not the others. In a situation like this, men can show extreme selfishness. They would use violence if that meant they would survive. This is why I think that a man could not be gentle in his primitive state.
EffacerIn LOTF it shows that man is more cruel when faced with adversity and the possibility of death. The quote goes against the human nature in my opinion.
EffacerI completely agree with you Michel, Lord of the Flies shows that man in his natural state is not good but is actually really evil, this quote does in fact go against the human nature.
EffacerPerhaps Rousseau is using the word "gentle" here in another sense. Maybe he meant "gentle" as in most simple, most gentle minded. The boy's are not very developed in age and the fact that they are making many rash decisions proves that they are definitely not capable of living safely without adults, they are thus "gentle minded". It's just a thought, another way to look at it.
EffacerI agree with Jana, perhaps gentle could be viewed as a state of mind being easily influenced in this case with the way they are forced to make important life-threatning decisions, so as primates most people think selfishly and in the simple mind set of survival. I also like what Nicolas' implied regarding Jack and Piggy.
EffacerI do agree with Olivier, but I also agree with Alex. This quote is only a generalization, not a fact because in the book, although the characters find themselves in a primitive state, they do not all behave in gentle ways. For example, Jack's temper flares easily and he hits Piggy. On the other hand, Ralph tends to react in a more gentle fashion when he confronted Jack after he came back form hunting. Simon is another character who proves to be gentle in his primitive state, as Elizabeth said. What Nicholas said is interesting too because Jack's acts of violence might become worse and make others react in violent ways as well.
EffacerI agree with Nicolas but not for the fact that Ralph is also that way for that i agree with Alex. This goes to show that every person is different when they are put in that kind of situation, it goes to show who is more selfish for example, Roger and Jack whereas Ralph and Simon are willing to do everything in their power to help everyone and they put other people before them. This quote isn't accurate for every man because everyone is different.
EffacerI agree with Élisabeth that Simon is definitely a good example of this quote, but what Olivier said is also very true, Jack definitely proves to be selfish and evil in this Chapter
EffacerThe quote that J.J Rousseaux means is that Men will be gentler, civilized, unsophisticated in terms of comfort in their earlier times. In Chapter 4 the characters are behaving the exact opposite way. Rousseaux explains that Men should always feel stable in their “Natural habitat”, but in the novel it is portrayed as the opposites even if the characters are on the island which is a new, Natural Habitat, but that they are feeling uneasy.
RépondreEffacerAlternatively, the boys in the novel are not acting in any way gentle and civilized in the chapter; everything that is happening is beginning to crumble down for some of the boys. As in now the theme for the chapter is Civilization vs. Savagery. The part that is civilization is when Ralph who is the leader of the group, proves to be responsible and tries to get the get the group of people out of the island. Jack proves to be a “savage” as in he is obsessed with the idea of killing the pig, he camouflages his face with clay and charcoal and enters the jungle to hunt, accompanied by other boys, that were suppose to keep the fire going to help them get them saved, but failed in the end.
“His mind was crowded with memories; memories of the knowledge that had come to them when they closed in on the struggling pig, knowledge that they had outwitted a living thing, imposed their will upon it, taken away its life like a long satisfying drink.”
This quote represent after Jack has killed the pig, and that shows he is becoming more cruel with time and he satisfaction it provides his primal instincts and has nothing to do with the good of the group.
So the quote “Nothing can be more gentle than man in his primitive state” by J.J. Rousseau is telling us the exact opposite of what is happening in the novel Lord of the flies.
"Civilization vs. Savagery" seems like a perfect example to describe the contrast between Ralph and Jack. I hadn't come up with that, good job.
EffacerThat's a great way to put it Johanne! We are really starting to see a contrast between the two "Main characters" Maybe there will be a fight betwwen Ralph and Jack as Ralph tries to promote a well rounded community and self-control, whereas Jack focuses on killing.
EffacerGreat. I just wonder why Mme. would give us a quote that means the exact opposite of what the book is telling us.
EffacerI also believe "Civilization vs. Savagery" is a good point to bring up. I believe Jack is trying to prove himself though over-leaps that ambition (Macbeth references :D) by going too far. The killing of the pig is all well and good though when you forget your duty that is essential to the rescue and safety of the group, that's a different aspect in it of it self.
EffacerMichel, this is lord of the flies not macbeth... let it go -_- and i agree with you once again michel, It's good that Jack finally killed a pig but, the fact is that the shelter some other stuff was actually more important than that pig and that Jack is being selfish and doing whatever he wants to do instead of helping the little community doing something that will benefit everybody.
EffacerI agree with everything that was said, but the truth is, this island isn't their "natural habitat" like Johanne mentionned. These boys come from the city and are used to having no responsibilities and adults around to help them, this environment is thus very unusual for them, which would then explain why their behavior is so different to what the quote says.
EffacerWell put Michel, and Tristan although this quote seems to be the opposite case for most of the boys, I think it does bring out the true, more caring character of others (such as Piggy and Ralph), which is why Mme might have given us the quote so we can clearly see the differences between the boys - how tension and problems could arise later on in the novel.
EffacerAnd yes, I think you're probably right Liz, the new atmosphere and situation could be the reason for such a dramatic difference from what is expected (quote).
I completely agree with what you said Johanne it makes total sense the contrast between the 2 main characters. In comparison the 2 main characters Ralph and Jack are leaders but for the rest they are completely different. Ralph is the protagonist in the story, he stands for civilization, morality and leadership meanwhile Jack is the antagonist, he stands for the desire of power, selfishness and amorality.
EffacerI totally agree with what Johanne is saying, like she said the boys are used to being raised in the city and not having to take care of themselves, so its only natural that stranded on an island, some of the boys (like Jack) might not be able to act properly and go a little insane (as he does over the pig). So this just shows that everyone will react differently in these situations
EffacerAm I the only one who thinks that this book is extremely unrealistic? The fact is that Jack is only 12 years old and that boys this age don't usually care about power. They normally want to play not hunt pigs. A 12 year old boy would probably be crying for his mommy if he was stranded on an island and not finding ways to kill or capture the pigs. His thirst for blood is quite unnatural and disturbing if you ask me.
RépondreEffacerI suppose that's true when the boy is in society but the fact that they have all been put in a completely new environment without rules or adults changes things. You have to remember that survival is one of our most basic human instincts. Many psychological theories suggest that so long as a human being is hungry, he thinks of nothing other than drink or nourishment, it isn't until those needs are satisfied that he starts thinking of other things and even then, the need for security will triumph over the want to play or cry.
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